The New Minority

[Aaron Brown]

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Now to go as far as to say as I am prolly the least prejudice person I know of yet every time I see something a person flaunts as their heritage or their beliefs I get annoyed.
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I think you mean you're not racist. Everyone prejudges things, people, and ideas under some circumstance or another (like shatzy mentioned). If you do in fact mean you're the least 'racist' person you know--racist being a person (or characteristic) believing people of other races are inferior because of their race--that's not saying much. Even marginal racism is still racism; and is ignorant. However, I think you're just using a colloquialism, trying to express to what degree you're 'not' racist (or prejudice).

In any case, if you do get annoyed by people flauting their heritage, that's not racist or prejudice. But considering you later mention being annoyed that others will get annoyed at you flaunting your heritage, it's odd.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not going to spend this post attacking you. Actually, I agree with your main point. I get t'd off when minorities victimize themselves too--and I AM one. Right now, I'm particularly gunned up after arguing about the US Supreme Court ruling supporting Affirmative Action at U of M (in my state).

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I mean I sit here usually quiet but I find it funny to think that if I had some sort of Straight as an arrow hetero-sexual parade or maybe if I started a fund for the All White not an ounce of Black College Fund, or maybe had a holiday for say hmmmmmmm Jerry Springer an held white festivities and fairs to celebrate the trailer park humor he brings to the people... I am damn SURE that someone would bitch. Not only Bitch but vote it down for being immoral un-ethical treatment of some race.
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The ironic thing here is that for hundreds of years there have been white-only social benefits. Only recently have blacks and women been allowed to do mundane things--like vote. Personally, as a black dude, I get offended when I see 'black owned and operated' signs outside of stores. I will not shop in those places. There was a time in the not-so-long-ago past where people did a little more than bitch about that. People got killed.

So if you want to start a white only fund, you certainly have my blessing. I think it's an excellent idea and you have every right to do so. Just be happy all you'll encounter is bitching and moaning, and not lynching or castration.

The next worst thing IMO to minorities unnecessarily victimizing themselves is str8 white men doing it. It's not like US Marshall's followed you to APT 109, looking for a black guy in APT 108, and haul you away for 27 hours without compensating you for your time lost at work, time spent in four line-ups, in a cell, being interrogated despite claims of innocence, and then left in the precinct lobby without a dime to get home. And why? Because the two white Marshals can't tell the difference between a light-complexioned black male with no hair from a brown-complexioned black male with short hair with a habit of murdering white women. But you don't see me mentioning that; or do you?

FACTOID: There are already several holidays for white men, including: Lincoln's Birthday; Washington's Birthday;St. Patrick's Day; Jefferson's Birthday; Wright Brothers Day & Christmas

FACTOID: Women always ask me for it.

<font color="#6699ff" size="1">[ June 25, 2003 04:26 AM: Message edited by: Omar de Fati ]</font>

[SHATOUSHKA]

i've been avoiding reading anything associated
with the AA ruling as i am already pivoted against
AA... and i'm not sure i have the (mental/emotional) strength
currently to endure such an undertaking....

i hope that you or someone (maybe me tomorrow)
will post about the AA issue as i would like to
discuss it....

[Cyalaytr]

Omar...
In the sense that I prolly worte before I sat and thought about it all I am sure most of what i said could be construde in many ways. What I was trying to say about being racist or prejudice was that I have people I hate in every race and I have people I like in every race. I try not to see colors or shapes or cultures.
Living in a town where we an 80% white population it is ez to say this or you may think that that is the only reason I can say this. But not so the case. If I travel to Denver the ratio changes very fast the opposite direction. More so depending which side of town you are on. All I can say is I dont pull out the stereo types of locking my doors in the cars "cause were in a bad neighborhood" just because I see more blacks then whites.
As far as I can tell life style isnt chosen by color but by economy, how you were raised, and what your value as a person is. There are just as many white guys I know that would just as soon do a person harm or rob ya as any other race so I protect myself equally to them all and go about my way. So I am sorry if you were that person that was held at the police station. But that is the what I am trying to get at. The white guy who couldnt tell a black guy from a light skin black guy was iggnorant. Period. And to look at him in return and think of all white guys being ignorant in that we all cant tell the difference is just stupid.

Yes i know we (being white guys) have holidays that may be for a white person.... but we dont declare it a holiday JUST because he was white. St Pattys day is after a Saint. Licoln Bday is because he was president. blaa blaa blaa .... You dont see a nation HONOR THE WHITE HISTORY MONTH
But yet we have Black History month, Black Artist, Cino De Miyo, blaa blaa all celebrating a race or culture. There in lies the difference I am trying to get at.

And I dont think we need a "white college fund" and would laff at anyone who started one. But in the same laff I laff at the NAACP and the UNCF for instead of trying to correct the problem of maybe not enough blacks or minorities or what ever they deem as a problem not getting chosen for jobs, degrees, funding etc... they run off and start a BLACK only this or that. Which I my view only drives the races farther apart and makes you want to hates whites as you are constently remind of how your for fathers were treated and makes us hate in return for being remind of what people once did that have absolutly no basis for how I in my lifetime will treat you.

Hope that makes more sense then the previous. I was only trying to point out people running around claiming they are proud to be white, black, etc... is no diff then the rich running around screaming they have all the money and look at all the poor people. It doesnt build bolds, friendships or ties between people. It only reminds of who we are not and gives us reason to hate each other.

example... If you are black and happen to hold 10 grammys for singing. I dont want to celebrate black artist month just because you can sing but rather listen to your music produced by a talented artist who happens to be black. But do we need the reference that the person is black?? Couldn't I say , I just like listening to music by a "talented artist"? And it be the same or mean as much? You dont hear people say people say.. and now the talented white single male from Dallas will now perform blaa blaa blaa.

Being white all I can say is I am sorry for the ignorance of white people what they may have done to the Indians, Blacks, South Africans, Hispanics, Chinese, Japanese, Iraqs people, Germans, Jewish etc... But that wasn't me and I wasn't there. As far as I know my father wasn;t there, nor his father.

So please... stop reminding me of something I had about something I had nothing to do with. Yes it is history and should be viewed as such. History. If you are ever treated unfairly by me then tell me I am ignorant, shout it in my face if you have to until I understand. But I don't need a special holiday to remind me not to be nor a month deicated to review something I don't celebrate no matter the color.

CYA

[Aaron Brown]

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... i am already pivoted against
AA...
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As am I. Although I think there are social inequalities in our nation (USA), I think Affirmative Action is absolutely inadeqaute to address them. And, I think many of them are best left unaddressed.

[Aaron Brown]

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In the sense that I prolly worte before I sat and thought about it all I am sure most of what i said could be construde in many ways. What I was trying to say about being racist or prejudice was that I have people I hate in every race and I have people I like in every race. I try not to see colors or shapes or cultures.
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That's the impression I got. I didn't think you were saying "Hey, I'm racist, but just a little bit".

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There are just as many white guys I know that would just as soon do a person harm or rob ya as any other race so I protect myself equally to them all and go about my way.
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That's very good. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with robbing someone. I place no value on possession. I've stolen things and had things stolen from me, without any moral value placed on the act. I even recognize the vacuousness of using the word 'stolen', since it implies a value on possession. But that's another topic that burst forth from me.

It does have marginal relevance if we consider the number of 'steals' occuring in america is higher for black theives than for white. Is it really an economical issue? After all, there are still more poor white people than poor blacks. Yet, the dept. of justice claims blacks commit more crimes of theft than whites. It's a very interesting blow against common economical defenses used by the politically correct when discussing this issue.

As for harming people; I don't mind it at all. I simply don't do it because it's not entertaining to me. BTW...I grew up in the inner-city Detroit, Mi (to add context, it was during the era when Det. was murder capital of the US). Now I live in a senior citizen riddened suburb of Det. I have always, and still protect myself against the behavior shown by black people who might hurt me. The only white people I worry about are government officials. Their race is incidental and of no value since a change of residence would change their respective race.

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Yes i know we (being white guys) have holidays that may be for a white person.... but we dont declare it a holiday JUST because he was white. St Pattys day is after a Saint. Licoln Bday is because he was president. blaa blaa blaa .... You dont see a nation HONOR THE WHITE HISTORY MONTH
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Martin Luther King's birthday holiday isn't celebrated because he is black. It's celebrated because he was a social warrior. It was established by white people, under political pressure by white people.

Black history month is an attempt to compensate for year round euro-american history (white history). It's simply a fact of conquest that a victor gets the spoils and the right to author history books. An african proverb says, "when the lion writes history books, the hunter will cease to be a hero".

Black history month is a period of focus on one culture, its history, present, and potential future. There is already a white history 'year', but it's called 'American History' and not "white history". It doesn't celebrate the "white race", any more than black history celebrates the "black race". The former focuses on the historical events occuring in one society that's predominately one race (which is incidental), and the latter on another.

The only valid grievance I have (and share with you) is the name "Black History Month". I think its stupid. But I think calling the "white history year" by the name of 'American History" while all but excluding contributions (positive and negative) by non-whites is stupid as well.

It's just a catch 22. Feb. cannot be called American History, because it isn't. American History shouldn't be called that either because it isn't. If the substance of Black History Month amounts to a celebration of the black race, then American History is a celebration of the white race. And all things are eqaul.

The only adequate way to reconcile this problem is including all areas of american history in American History--including more than a page of slavery and all its travesty, the natives to this land, chinese that helped tame the west, irish, italian, and all other non anglo american contributors. Current American History is built on a foundation that was establish by people who were racist, and/or simply didn't acknowledge the humanity of others.

That's not our drawback. I know there a people (who incidentally have white skin) that don't consider my race when determining my value as a human. And now you know there's a black person opposed to Affrimative Action, reverse discrimination, black on white racism, and black self-victimization. That's social evolution and I like it.

Just remember, the black people who played a role in establishing the name "Black History Month" were social crybabies, and may have been suffering from self-victimization syndrome; an unoffically named condition resulting from existing under unequal social norms. So we can't blame people for crying out when they are in pain. But for god's sake, I wish they would shut the fuck up when the pain goes away (on that I think you and I agree). Further, I believe is black people (or any other group of people) want things to be equal, they should stop crying to white people and take shit back, in the same fashion it was taken by white people--called put up or shut up.

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But in the same laff I laff at the NAACP and the UNCF for instead of trying to correct the problem of maybe not enough blacks or minorities or what ever they deem as a problem not getting chosen for jobs, degrees, funding etc...
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Those organizations are money getting groups that would go away if the problem was solved. That's why they keep reinventing themselves with each generation.

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Which I my view only drives the races farther apart and makes you want to hates whites as you are constently remind of how your for fathers were treated and makes us hate in return for being remind of what people once did that have absolutly no basis for how I in my lifetime will treat you.
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You're right. I am an ex member of the Nation of Islam. There are no whites allowed in the group, nor in any of its religious buildings. I went into it a child of a white woman and came out wondering where I learned to hate whites. Lucky for me, I was predispose to reason.

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If you are black and happen to hold 10 grammys for singing. I dont want to celebrate black artist month just because you can sing but rather listen to your music produced by a talented artist who happens to be black.
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I agree 100%. And because I agree with this exact principle, I don't support things by BET, or Black History Month. I recognize people on their merit, never considering their skin color. Well, I might look at a black neurosurgeon and say, "that's pretty impressive for a black person". That's just one of those 'economical' references that ultimately have nothing to do with race, but my own experiences being poor around only poor undereducated blacks. I've never been around poor whites.

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But do we need the reference that the person is black??
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Nope. Because it's stupid. And I've consciously worked on eliminating the habit myself. However, I still say Justin Timberlake dances pretty good for a white guy, and the tall white dude on the Dallas Mavericks can really jump. Talk about blasting stereotypes.

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So please... stop reminding me of something I had about something I had nothing to do with.
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I won't. In fact, if I knew you, I'd try to get you high as hell and then maybe I'd say, "wait...you're white?".

Just remember, people are stupid no matter their color. And if this shit bothers you, then it should bother you both ways, and I think it does. That makes you a cut above the people we're talking about. So don't victimize yourself when you are doing just fine. People are going to scam the system, and get whatever they can get. In their wake, they will have indoctrinated millions with whatever theme they've used. One of the current themes is "black this, or that".

[Cyalaytr]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">Originally posted by Omar de Fati:

....The only adequate way to reconcile this problem is including all areas of american history in American History--including more than a page of slavery and all its travesty, the natives to this land, chinese that helped tame the west, irish, italian, and all other non anglo american contributors. Current American History is built on a foundation that was establish by people who were racist, and/or simply didn't acknowledge the humanity of others.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

[img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] Good Idea.

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...Just remember, the black people who played a role in establishing the name "Black History Month" were social crybabies, and may have been suffering from self-victimization syndrome; an unoffically named condition resulting from existing under unequal social norms. So we can't blame people for crying out when they are in pain. But for god's sake, I wish they would shut the fuck up when the pain goes away (on that I think you and I agree). Further, I believe is black people (or any other group of people) want things to be equal, they should stop crying to white people and take shit back, in the same fashion it was taken by white people--called put up or shut up.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly my point.... weather it be black, lesbian, gay, hispanic, women, men, children... what ever the case it feels more as if they are of a certain race or color, sex, or sexual orientation yet they play off what may have happened in the past. I am surprised there ahsn't been an up rising up witches blaming us for Hanging or Drownings lately.

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Nope. Because it's stupid. And I've consciously worked on eliminating the habit myself. However, I still say Justin Timberlake dances pretty good for a white guy, and the tall white dude on the Dallas Mavericks can really jump. Talk about blasting stereotypes.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

But that isn't so much so of stereotyping as it could be. I mean Due to limits placed on people or that blacks may not have attend college or had the same opportunities has another person it is rare to see something of that. And there are really that many white guys who play basketball nor white guys who can rap and sound worth a shit. Maybe because not that many of them have tried it. Who knows. But I think as time goes on that will eventually fade. Heck look at the world now. Kid Rock and Eminem rap and Tiger Woods plays golf.


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I won't. In fact, if I knew you, I'd try to get you high as hell and then maybe I'd say, "wait...you're white?".</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now That Was FUNNY. :-) I could see us laffing our ass off.


All in all I think I agree most with your line about people being social cry babies. I mean I pretty much try to live by the old addage of Eye for an Eye. If you lend a hand a hand will be lend back. You hinder my life... I will hinder yours. No matter the color, sex, shape or size.

Omar.. thanks for giving me a new view from your side though I wasn't trying to make it souly about blacks. More so anyone just whining. But your perspective has givin me more hope that I am not always looked at as just WHITE.


CYA

<font color="#6699ff" size="1">[ June 25, 2003 09:25 PM: Message edited by: Cyalaytr ]</font>

[Cyalaytr]

OK OK OK OK get this..... (said in my best Joe Pesci voice) i no sooner then post the above and my phone rings. Is a friend who needs help figuring out how to send out a GROUP email for National Hispanic Heritage History Month.


BAHAHAHHAHAHA the irony is going to kill freekin me.

[Aaron Brown]

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Omar.. thanks for giving me a new view from your side though I wasn't trying to make it souly about blacks.
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Oh man, I didn't do nothing. If you weren't already in the mind state you are, nothing I'd say would do squat. I never thought you were being nasty, not in the least. Like I said, you have a legitimate beef, just don't let it become like a social philosopy (at least that's my advise).

People are always going to cry wolf with their hands out. My position on the matter is pretty much, if I (black people, not me specifically)think you (white people, but not 'you' specifically)had knocked me down and kept me from getting up, I certainly wouldn't ask you to help me up. But that's what people are doing.

Now, you specifically, aren't the person that knocked me down. In fact, you might have been knocked down for some other reason, and trying to get up just like me (still not me specifically). Eh...that was an analogy that seemed like it was going somewhere, but I got lost after arguing on the phone, so fuck it. I just left it in because it might be funny.

Let me use gay people for no other reason than you and I aren't gay. Unless you consider wondering about Cow Cud's dirty panties homosexual.

Gay people (not all of them) say they want to be treated like any ol' american citizen. But they do shit that makes them stand out; like march in gay parades wearing strap ons and penis-head hats. Also, some gay and lesbians purposefully behave in flaming or counter-cultural ways. But hey, they ARE counter culture right!? Okay then, don't expect to be consider mainstream if you are counter culture. Shit, if I liked to nail men, I wouldn't expect str8 folks to consider me str8.

If my post-argument charged logic can be applied to the black community, then they (we) should stop complaining about not being part of (white) america when we do shit like celebrate "Black History Month" (even thought it's just a genre American History which excludes other black cultures), sport "black own and operated" signs outside the busimeses (the few there are), and make no attempt as a community to behave in socially acceptable ways.

But here's something to chew on. The majority of the black community I'm from (detroit michigan) aren't like the black people we've discussed. In fact, they are (sadly) quite comfortable in their sub-standard living. The people we've discussed are the socially elite from the black community; the bourgeois blacks that believe skin color is a ticket out of the middle-class into a socially influential position or a 80,000 dollar car. To me, they are pigs and scum protected by their intellectual ability to appeal to government (white police, or officials who they claim treats them badly).

I've tried to rant here, just a bit, in a passionate summary of my position. I could prolly write an essay about how vehemently I oppose racism by blacks (which is what I call the things you've discribed). Typically, I save it for black people, or poor people, or gay people, as they are the only ones IMO that will benefit from me expressing it.

IMO, racism against blacks in america is virtually non-existent. It's a social phantom. Its remnants exist in heart-wrenching stories about slavery and the last few decades, or behind a few thousand white sheets and black fists. But beacuse it's such a recent phenomena, the scar is there so you and I have to look at it and marvel at its non-existence.

I believe people mistake institutional discrimination for racism. An institution can and will discrimate in as many ways as possible. People absue their power, and that abuse may be racially, economically, or demographically motivated. The difference is crying about racism has generated so many benefits for the black community in the last few decades, it's become cliche' and politically incorrect for white people to oppose them.

As a white person, you're at a disadvantage arguing that position. Str8 white men have the upper-hand in so many apsects of society, a seemingly legitmate beef becomes self-victimization. But I can argue it--BECAUSE I BLACK AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Not only am I black, but I come from the fucking ghetto and I am middle-class.

FACTOID: You really can take the nigga out of the ghetto, without taking the ghetto out of the nigga.

FACTIOD: White people have a tougher time dealing with the word nigger being spoken than black people. For example...

FACTIOD: Nigga, no matter how many black people use it, is not an adequate term of endearment. Its origin in inner-city vernacular is firmly traced back to blacks sharing distrust and hatred for each other. It has evolved into an expression where friends define friendship by the degree of cruelty which goes unpunished (or unnoticed) between them.

<font color="#6699ff" size="1">[ June 25, 2003 10:51 PM: Message edited by: Omar de Fati ]</font>

[Cyalaytr]

God (no pun intented) I wished I had your mind.. or maybe your way with words. You state things just as I see them. I see your words and wished I had written them. I sit here in a dilema of Acrop site vs Unreal 2003. HMMMM and I am drawn back just to see what you posted so I have new reasons to fume. Not in that I am fuming about what you said. But it was more so what I wished I had said or thought. And now that I know what I am mad at and the "best choice" of words to express it.. I think over an over in the ways that society is screwed up.

Your clear views from your prospective being black yet voicing my complaints as being white had rolled over into everything just replace the terms black and white with straight vs gay or christian vs no belief. blaaa blaaa

Anyhow I know you said I shouldn't appeal to your words or views just because you found a rant and expressed your points but you filled all the empty spaces.

OK enough ass kissin. Though you have great posts. Now you make me courious to drag more thoughts out of you. HMMMM

Anyhow... I am sure in time people will look back at our day and age and laff at what we did or didnt do to make things better. So much so like how we burned people at the stake in belief they were witches and now we look at it as HOW IGNORANT THEY WERE.. yet we sit here and pull the same crap yet on a diff level.

To add to the story I read just the other day where they are now having to re-segragate some of the schools in Denver because the people in the schools are not of the race in the neighborhood and since they have been bused all over town starting way back when that it has screwed everything up since people then wanted to live closer to the school they attended etc.. and their kids kids etc.


Here is another article that you may want to read or watch...

9 news article

[Aaron Brown]

Dude, I don't really believe that shit I said. I'm just sucking up because I need someone to show me how to ride a motorcycle.

BTW, that shit with U of M sucks. I tried to attend thier back in the early 90s, but after learning that I bascially lied on my application, I was told they are too selective in their admission policy. Also, I dressed really thuggish back then, I'm more conservative in my dress now.

Bascially, on this volutary survey which asks about ethnicity, I said "white". Well, I'm mixed, my mother is white and father is black. So then, I'm equally justified in saying either. They didn't agree and beleived I lied. However, had I said black, I might have gained admission considering I blasted my ACT (and the SAT but not as good).

Instead, I went to U of D (university of detroit) a catholic private school. I've had a beef with U of M since then. And the reason I tried to side -step the survey thing is to avoid getting benefits for my ethnicity. And look what they did to me! Those freaking liberals right winged christian commies.

It's really a tough position to hold. People ask me all the time if I got a reparations check in the mail, would I send it back. Of course not. But I won't do anything to get the check sent to me either.

And thanks for the compliments. Does this mean we can go biking or what?

<font color="#6699ff" size="1">[ June 25, 2003 11:41 PM: Message edited by: Omar de Fati ]</font>